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Female Like Me

Nancy Vonk
Co-Chief Creative Officer
Ogilvy Toronto


Although still partially paralyzed by Neil French’s words about women last evening, I feel compelled to push my rigid hand across a page or two to attempt a response on behalf of women, who in the extremely entertaining, informative performance took a particularly harsh beating in the last minutes of the show, edging out the Australians and account people for his greatest disrespect.

First, a little context. Janet Kestin and I have known Neil since we began seeing him at the Ogilvy “Cadre” meetings he organized starting in ’98 in cities around the world. We became fast pen-pals and over the years we learned a lot from him, especially through his example of being brutally honest and true to himself. We’ve felt honored that Neil calls us his friends. We would both say we’ve had the most fun, most memorable parts of our ad careers in his company. Before this week we last saw him on our final night in Cannes last June at one of his favorite 5 star restaurants. Good times.

I knew before last night where Neil stands on women. One of my first clues was the way he introduced a new female CD to the overwhelmingly male Cadre members in Bangkok. He spoke glowingly of her accomplishments before concluding with, “And can you believe it? She’s a WOMAN!” Janet and I became jaded to his frequently outrageous comments long ago, thus surviving many experiences of laughing and crying simultaneously. We genuinely like him and developed a ‘take the good with the bad’ philosophy, looking the other way as required to maintain the highly valued relationship. To stay in the club.

Last night Neil was true to form and more than delivered on the event as advertised. For performance, for dialing “shit disturber” to 11, he said what he really thinks and added spin on top if it. I almost managed to blank out the idiocy of the French maid for awhile because the Fenske-Boyko-French combo was on the whole so interesting and enjoyable. But by the time Neil let into the women---the slacker breeders who he made clear really don’t belong in this man’s game, my jaded jaw hit the floor.

It’s too easy to discount Neil’s views as those of a man from an era and geographies that reinforced that the role of women should be reserved for pleasing the men, marrying them, bearing and caring for their offspring. What struck me so hard as he described a group that will inevitably wimp out and “go suckle something” after their short stint in advertising, was that in his honest opinion he was voicing the inner thoughts of legions of men in the senior ranks of our business. Before us was a big part of the explanation of why more women aren’t succeeding in advertising. If male CD’s even a little like Neil see the female creative coming towards him with her work and he’s already convinced she’s extremely limited in her ability and value, what lens is he seeing her work---her---through? Would you expect that CD to offer the same support and guidance and consideration he gives the men? Might that woman keep herself down on the farm when her leader conveys in countless ways she’s not as good as the boys? Might she respond with less than her best effort when the adored leader expects little of her? Might she want to leave, not to have babies but because the conditions for her to succeed don’t exist and the message she can’t succeed is too discouraging?

Many young women in school or just out of it have asked Janet and me, can it really be done? Just last week: “My teacher keeps telling the women, ‘You know, this is really hard. Are you sure you want to do this’?” Another ad legend wasn’t shy to share with me recently that he doesn’t think women can do great ads, because they’re hard-wired to have the “balance alarm bell” go off at a decent hour of the evening, therefore leaving the men to carry on putting in the long hard hours required to do the best work. There was no malice here; he meant it as a sort of credit to women that they won’t kill themselves like the men.

If our greatest leaders are busy quietly persuading girls they’re just not cut out for this gig, how far is this group going to get---the brave ones who soldier on in spite of the discouragement? And by the way, can you imagine law or med school professors giving their female students the same advice? (Step aside, ladies, the boys will take care of the hard stuff. Enjoy motherhood you lucky girls.) Well once upon a time, of course they did. Advertising remains in the dark ages as other fields reap the benefits of workforces now glittering with talented women. Malcolm Gladwell tells the story of the sea change that happened in the music industry when auditions for symphony orchestra members began to include hiding the musicians behind screens, thus eliminating the enormous bias against female artists. Female membership skyrocketed when conductors could no longer see who was playing the best. Now women comprise up to half the orchestras on merit.

Last night Neil didn’t know his Canadian audience. He doesn’t realize we have Elspeth Lynn, Lorraine Tao, Christina Yu, Judy John hitting home runs in the shows he respects most while they fulfill the top jobs; that Canada’s largest city has almost as many female CD’s as male in the best known agencies. He doesn’t see the creative departments filled with women burning the midnight oil as much or more than the men (not that either gender should be bragging about that). Too bad for him that his experience working with women has been so limited, considering he’s spent his career in the most notoriously sexist environments in the world.

Yes, ladies, the deck is stacked against us, as it used to be in so many other demanding professions. Even as the best ad schools graduate equally talented men and women in equal quantities. What happens after that is the question of the hour. There are many factors. Among them: those who do want a family don’t get stay-at-home spouses like so many men do (well, lucky Sally Hogshead does, to count exactly one that I know) and we’re not happy to hand the job over to a replacement mom. As long as we’re pegged not as heroes but as slackers for taking on the whole deal, it’s a rocky road indeed--- never mind being condemned from day one on the mere chance a baby may some day materialize.

Neil did us the favor of voicing a widely held view, albeit an extreme version. It’s an opportunity for us all---men, too---to confront something every bit as wrong and unacceptable as racism. (Replace every comment Neil made about women with the word ‘black’ and take my point.)

For all the young people at the Neil French night, especially, I hope you will retain the many pearls of wisdom he had to share and use them to your benefit. This ad giant has many good lessons to teach. As for his perspective on women, consider it the perfect demonstration of one of the biggest obstacles to success women face and see it for what it really is: a load of crap that inspires you to prove Neil and friends wrong. Take note that working at an agency run by any man known for bias against women may be a losing proposition in the pursuit of achieving that goal. A happy, successful career can hinge on having a CD who truly believes in you and makes it his or her job to help you win.

Finally, the women reading this are going to have to do better than me. I’ve suddenly realized that looking the other way, turning the other cheek in any situation equivalent to a black person being called a nigger makes me part of the problem. I’m snapping out of it awfully late, and it seems obvious that we can’t take this shit and expect to see anything change. Don’t be discouraged; be outraged and act accordingly.
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COMMENTS
Nancy 1
Neil 0...fuck it,-1.
Posted by toshow
Well said, I wasn't able to make it but i heard of the astocities that were uttered.

Well the good thing is that is the old generation speaking out.
Posted by Ibraheem Youssef
Reading your article again just infuriates me. how you rank in this business depends solely on how hard you work, gender doesn't factor in whatsoever and to see such a great icon still rant on about how women are inferior is shameful. I had the pleasure of working under Judy John at LeoBurnett and if there were only more women like her in the business around. The business doesn't need men or women ... it needs hard talented workers.
Posted by Ibraheem Youssef
One point - Neil did not state that women have less talent then men. In fact, he went as far as to mention that he'd like to see more females 'make it' so to speak.

What he did say, and I believe this goes back to his point that in the long run, this is only advertising, is that childbirth and the responsibilities that come after are more important than advertising. And also, by their nature, more important to a woman than a man.

Do I agree with the way he presents his thoughts on the issue? No. Do I agree with his sentiment? Mostly not. But I do know that as Neil obviously went too far with his comments, Nancy has gone too far with hers here as well. Apart from simply misquoting him, that is.

The same thing applies to sexism as it does racism - if you want to see it disappear and really establish a level playing field, you need to fight real sexism, in important situations. As Chris Rock so eloquently put it, real racism isn't taking an extra 2 minutes to get a cab, it's BEING the cab (which he follows by pretending to be a white man riding a black man, quite funny...but anyways).

Let's put this in to perspective here.

This is one man's opinion, from a different generation. This is not the industry, at least not in Canada. I'm pretty sure the fact that you'll find no one in these parts standing up and agreeing with him demonstrates that.

I for one, see plenty of talented and hard working female creative directors in Toronto, and plenty of wonderful female creatives. The women of Toronto do not need to "be outraged."

You need to sit back and smirk to yourself, realizing that this guy is from another generation. The fact that he speaks as he does, and you work and live as you do, simply shows how much times have changed. All this outrage will do is set the female sex back to a state of blaming everything on sex, instead of letting your talent speak for yourselves.

Heck, the very person calling for this outrage is living proof that women can make it in this business if they work hard. Good luck finding someone that doesn't respect Nancy Vonk.

I mean, are you seriously going to call sexism when it's hard to break in as a female creative director? I've got news for you, it's hard to break in as a male creative director, too. I don't care what sex you are, it's going to be a lot of work.

Less blaming sex, more working hard. Everyone wins.

To be clear, I'm a huge proponent of women in advertising. I've worked with some incredibly talented women. I know a couple that I'd bet will be creative directors within 7 years.

I'm also a huge proponent of children being raised by their parents, not a daycare. At least for their formative years. Obviously that doesn't squarely fall on Mom's shoulders, but until we start seeing more 'house husbands', much of it does.

Heck, if my future wife and mother of my children I haven't met yet refused to take time off work to raise the children, I probably would. It's just bloody advertising. I've seen people take sabbaticals for much, much worse reasons than to raise a child properly.

Regardless which side of the fence you sit on though, I think it's ridiculous to believe you can have and raise a child with NO impact on your career.

And that's where the choice comes in. Which was, in the end, his point.
Posted by Steve
Neil French is a dud. The cognac and money has gone to his head. Success ain't jack without respect.
Posted by Rocky
And since we all came from a woman

Got our name from a woman

And our game from a woman

I wonder why we take from our women

Why we hate our women

I think it's time to kill for our women

Time to heal our women

Be real to our women

So will the real men get up

I know you're fed up ladies

But keep your head up

- 2pac
Posted by Makaveli
Steve, a nice post overall.

You might not find anyone standing up and agreeing with Mr. French, but you also won't find many that night standing up and disagreeing.

I wasn't there that night, but did anyone actually voice their opinion? Or did we all, as an advertising community, sit in our seats trying to avoid confrontation with one who we deemed a "master of his craft?"

You are correct to say, as women, the more negatively worked up we get, the more unequal we make ourselves appear. But it never hurt anyone to simply retort an opinion that simply doesn't hold its own weight in this day in age.

No one is a celebrity. You're right, this is just advertising.

So let's let Neil, and every other person who won't evolve know, that they are a respected person with their own set of beliefs, but by voicing those beliefs in this day of age, you are welcoming a mature debate on your point.

As far as Nancy goes, I commend her for speaking out, but also respecting the man for his accomplishments.

I wouldn't say this situation is like Rosa Parks not getting a seat on the bus or anything, but I do believe there is still an ever-present glass ceiling in our industry.

You hit the nail on the head; prove your talent. Let's just hope that talent will get men and women by equally - equal pay, equal promotions, equal respect.
Posted by carla
Dear Makavell,

"Girls.

To do the dishes

To Clean up my room

To do the laundry

And in the bathroom

Girls."

- Beastie Boys
Posted by ifyouwantaquote
A lot of selective hearing here, no?

I was there and listened to what he said and meant...I didn't try to use his points as fuel for some fire I am to rage.

Outraged? Come on girls put your ovaries back in your uterus.

The man simply said that women are the corner stone of childbirth and that the responsibilities that come after, and with it, are more important than advertising. Is he wrong?

No he's not.

He stated why women don't typically hold senior creative positions in our industry. And he did it in a shocking-showmanlike way that is his style.

The said part Nancy is you bought the sizzle without tasting the steak.

He never said anything was impossible.

In fact I think he proved that a few times ;-)
Posted by some reasonable bitch
"Neil French’s words about women"

I believe his words were about the question that was posed to him 'why aren't there that many creative directors that are women?'. I don't remember him saying anything in general about women other than he thinks "they're fun" and that he likes babes.

He does not believe that women have less talent. He merely pointed out where the waterline in the glass. People will focus which sides benefits them.

If fact, I too have seen people leave their career for less than noble reasons. Joining a rock band or circus, girlfriends, boyfriends, business ethics, drug culture or even a relocated sports team. Leaving any career to raise a child properly is the greatest gift anyone could give to our world. Fortunately or not women have the starting parts that makes them naturally capable.

If you can't see that, less acknowledge that raising a child impacts your career , you're completely nuts and obviously irrational.

Relax. It's just advertising.
Posted by Turner
I'd love to think Neil was just using hyperbole; that it was justified in the name of "comedy" in order to make a point about child-rearing being the most important job in the world. But who the f*ck really needs to be told that? I don't buy it. Given Nancy's "...and can you believe, she's a woman!" quote, it sounds like he has a genuine bias against women. Unfortunately, he's not alone in this industry.

Nancy named Elspeth and Lorraine as two women who've made it. But let's not forget they started their own agency. That's not to say they couldn't have got CD jobs somewhere, but it probably happened faster - and they obviously have more power - having started their own shop.

That leaves Nancy & Janet, Christina Yu, and Judy John who've also broken through the glass ceiling in this country. Thank God, because I've heard more than a few discouraging stories from female friends who've felt stifled or discouraged from aiming "too high" by their male bosses.
Posted by CLM
All you people apologizing for Neil French’s comments about women and childbirth I doubt you were paying attention through out the whole show.

His attitude towards women was obvious before he made those specific comments. The disgusting jokes about dropping things so the “French maid” would flash her butt. The comments about the women in the leather pants.

He called women babes through out the night and one woman a bitch near the end.

Stop apologizing for somebody who should go back to the Jurrassic era where he belongs.

PS. In my opinion he had nothing interesting to say. The night was a comple waste of time.
Posted by jordina
Bending over jokes? Babe? Bitch?

I guess some people here don't watch TV, or go outside.

Hello, 2005.
Posted by Sexist pig
Let's not forget this is the same man whose Straits Times ad reads as follows:

How many times have you been in a client meeting, and he's announced, "People don't read copy any more." This, coming from a man with a newspaper poking out of his briefcase. And if you point this out, he says, "Well, I do, of course. But the public doesn't".

...The bloke seriously believes that he and the public are different species. This is also the genius who says, when you present an ad, "Well of course, you know, I understand it, but the public won't".

(A good exercise with this type of person is to substitute the word 'women' for the word 'public', and play it back to him.)

*

So, having read that, I'd chalk these recent comments up to hyperbole and showmanship, and get on with life.

The real racists and sexists out there aren't the ones making controversial public comments; they're the people who silently and furtively use their power to oppress others.

Let's get over this nonsense already.
Posted by Lyle Shemer
"His attitude towards women was obvious before he made those specific comments."

Jordina, his attitude towards women was obvious before he even graced the stage. The Andys awards ad Rick Boyko showed in his opening speech already covered what should be common knowledge about the man: he's a 'ladies man' with chauvanistic tendencies. Even read his pieces in Pick Me, the Ask Jancy book, where he alludes to Balinese virgins. Anybody truly shocked by his show must also be mortified when they tune into Howard Stern to discover that he has strippers on his program, or to find out Chris Rock is quite liberal with the N-word in his act.

If you bought a ticket to Neil French and expected him to be sweet and genial, perhaps you should've saved your money for a bridge in Brooklyn.
Posted by Matthew
Say it sister.

So I didn't see Neil French. I admit it. But many people here at the office did. And just as many walked out, disgusted by his comments, particularly his reference to account people as cunts.

Since half the audience was apparently students, I guess the only good thing was that now they know what a sexist industry they’re getting into. But I do wish someone had called bullshit on his attitude and comments. Even in the sanctuary of this anonymous forum, there’s an occasional oblique reference to French’s misogyny but it’s quickly excused or defended as out of context. Worse yet, the commentors are told they’re too sensitive. Oh pu-lease. Such attitudes are never acceptable. And everyone’s silence is just as outrageous.

As a woman and a creative, I have been called a fucking bitch for privately disagreeing with my CD’s point of view. That endured my nickname for the next two years I worked with him.
I have had to keep a straight face when another boss told me that he had to give the interns the beer brief because no one else was available. This was just after my partner and I had just told him we weren’t busy.
I have been told that the reason I was hired was because I was a woman and the agency had some female clients that needed placating, oh yeah, and because of my talent.
I have watched (more than one) female member of senior management come back from maternity leave only to be manipulated out the door by their male counterparts. The reason? The boys liked playing with themselves more.

I just wish I had the guts or the security to be able to sign my name to the bottom of this post. Because I am mad as hell and sick of the unspoken rules. But in this industry the only barriers being broken are the ones around the brief.

So thanks Nancy for signing your name. And you too Jordina.
Posted by ditto
I suppose because you're a woman, you're above being called out?

In my time in the industry I've never heard of someone getting the nickname 'fucking bitch'. Odd.

Have you ever thought that maybe, just maybe, you actually WERE a fucking bitch?


Just like all those men, who were called assholes before you.

Sometimes female creatives make it because they are good. Sometimes female creatives get fired because they suck.

Not everything is because you're a 'babe'.
Posted by Asshole
Nancy, I couldn't agree more. If women and men don't speak up we are all contributing to our demise. Women don't be afraid to say what you think for fear of the majority's scourn. A women's opinion does mean alot in this industry, ask your clients.

I got into this industry to help change the way advertising was speaking to women. The stereotypes, the impossible standards. And here, Neil French lives and breathes them ( I wonder who was delivering those messages to us before and now I know why) Fear. Well, Neil be afraid , be very afraid causes we're here and we're staying.

Let's not forget the fact that this "slacker/less talented" sex is the majority of the purchasing power, 80% in fact. So who do you think could speak to these women, be insightful and help persude? Is it my thinking or yours?

Bravo Nancy, you've got huge ovaries!!!
Posted by Rosalinda Graziano
I concur :-) Although I can't bash French too much as he reminds me very much of my 94 year old grandfather. Same beliefs and lingo so to speak. Neil just grew up in a different time than us, where women weren't thoughten of as equals and "equal opportunity" was something to mock behind corridors instead of embrace. So can I blame Neil? Of course not but do I feel this deserves to be brought to attention? Definitly yes.
Posted by Some guy
I don' know... , Neil came out of a women, probably spent his whole life trying to get back in ... and now he disses them, he must have some gonads.
Posted by joeytomatoes
You guya at ihaveanidea need to make the type bigger on articles.... The comination of the white on black plus the type being small.... well, I think I'm going blind.
Posted by Alexandre Roche
Alexandre Roche,

The Apple and + keys work very well together.
Posted by Solution
check your chromosomes

we are different
Posted by the answer
It is based on talent. There will be a future surplus of females in the business and it will grow. In my class' at OCAD last year I was the only male in my main Concept Class. However, you can see who will make it and who wont. It is only the ones who really apply themselves and are creative that will make. Those that put their time in. Even though there is a majority of women in advertising at OCAD if they really dont push to be there, they wont succeed and that goes for the males as well, I only see a couple actually making it through. It is all based on time, effort, and creativeness. If you are not fully committed then you may as well just go into something else.
French is hysterical about you spending you're time talking about him.
Posted by lordbutch
Is anyone really surprised? Take Neil French, and put him in the most conservative, uptight country in the world - what did you expect to happen?

Canadians are doing a wonderful job of proving just how seriously we take ourselves, and our industry.

Maybe if we weren't so bloody uptight we'd do some better work.
Posted by Shockandawe
I’m more shocked by Nancy’s comments than I am by Neil’s.
To make such sweeping generalizations about an entire industry based on the insulting remarks of an old self-hyped legend and the constant whining of young creatives, is just as bad.

This business eats the weak and tortures the timid. We all know this. Grow a thicker skin and move on.

Also, talent favors no gender.
It only favors people who have it and who bust their asses to sharpen it.
No matter how prejudiced a CD may be, they cannot deny talent.
It always shines bright and gets noticed.
Nancy’s own career is proof of that.

As far as discouragement of young female creatives is concerned, I say bullshit.
BOTH genders are equally discouraged to enter this profession. I, myself, was lectured by the director of my ad school (an acquaintance of Nancy’s actually) upon my acceptance there. In her words, “This is a huge time and work commitment. It’s not going to be easy, are you sure you want to do this? Do you really think you can handle this?”
I told her, “Hell yes, I’m ready to work.”

This tactic is done for two reasons:

1) if someone continues despite heavy discouragement, they are obviously hungry and dedicated which is always a good thing

2) Discouragement is always a way of saying, “I told you so.” So when young creatives start bitching about clients or long work hours, their boss or teacher can look with a smile and say, “Remember, what I said?”

Finally, the Neil-Nancy situation is exactly the same as the frog and the scorpion. You know the one where a scorpion asks for a ride on the back of a frog to get across a pond. The frog says, “No, you’ll sting me.”
The scorpion vows not to.
The frog gives the scorpion a ride and when they are halfway across the scorpion stings the frog dooming both of them. The frog as he is dying asks the scorpion, “Why?”
The scorpion replies, “Because I am a scorpion. That’s what I do.”
They both drown and perish.

Neil is a chauvinistic, blow hard who admits to his hard drinking and womanizing ways. Why else would he have lived in Singapore for so long? Everyone knows this yet get incensed and flustered when he says the things he says. Sorry, but that’s Neil.

As the old saying goes, “You get what you pay for.” Hope the rest of the evening went well.
Posted by t-dub
If you don't know why someone would choose to live in Singapore, you are in serious need of a trip outside Toronto.
Posted by Haha
I'm not in advertising - but I've worked in enough organizatins & around enough men that have identical view of women as Mr. French's.

So I'm wondering, if everyone is aware of his reputation & more or less are expecting this type of delivery from the man - why would you spend $125 to attend a function where you more or less know that the guy is going to probably insult women?

For all those women who stayed ...I hope you were smart enough to just laugh out loud when he threw the insults your way.
Posted by Sue
I already commented on adpulp, so feel free to visit there for more opinions.
Posted by HighJive
Sue...you must feel better about yourself now. Good for you. Go burn your bra.

Let's make everything about race and sex...that way we'll all have an excuse for our mistakes.
Posted by emabarased for sue
As a young female advertising professional, (who, by the way, is trying to make that big decision as to when I should have children) I am entirely disgusted by Neil's comments.

It's amazing to me that this man is considered "brilliant" in the ad business, because if he were brilliant he would see that women are much more than (wait, what was the quote) "Slacker breeders".

If the pressure of the big decision on when to have children, whether or not to hire a nanny, who's going to stay home with the kids, etc. wasn't enough, now women have to deal with comments like this from a man that is "highly respected" in the industry.

Of course having children interferes with work-- but I've got to believe that it doesn't make women (or men who take on more of a lead parent role) any less creative, less productive or less strategic.

This IS just advertising-- and whether it's a woman who chooses to have children or a man who has sole responsibility of his children-- it's all about priorities and quality of life.

As women, we can be thankful that Neil's feelings are not the feelings of the male population as a whole-- and what's better is we can prove him wrong by doing what we do best-- working smarter.
Posted by Alicia
As Steve pointed out, French didn't say women were lazy, stupid or incompetent. He said they were not as willing to give up their lives for the job.
Some men are not willing to make that sacrifice either but they realize and accept the fact that they won't get to the top. It's your choice. It's not sexism.
Posted by Ron
Let's be really honest now.

Making it to the top has just as much to do with luck, politics, and a penchant for ass sucking as it does talent.

Given that this is the case, it would seem the ingredients for success favor neither gender, nor is either gender an ingedient for success in and of itself.

So why the fuck are we all still discussing this again?
Posted by Lyle
It's about time somebody told it like it is. There is no glass ceiling or wage gap. Men just do what has to been done to get to the top. Read Warren Farrell's book - Why Men Earn More.

Kudos to Mr. French for choosing the red pill and breaking free from the femimatrix.
Posted by Neo Durden
If there weren't inherent differences between men and women, not just physical differences with penises and vaginas and the like, but differences in the way they think, they act, they do things, if the only thing that truly seperates men and women is the ability to bear children...

...then why do we target the very ads we make differently? Hey Ogilvy, why don't your Dove beauty ads feature men in them? Fat men, balding men with wrinkles and freckles? If your response to that includes the words 'because men' or 'because women' then isn't that a gross generalization as well?

Neil's comments are hurtful, and in all honesty not 100% accurate, but don't we make sweeping comments of own every day as part of our jobs? The main difference is Neil didn't back up his comments with a twenty page market research document and focus group results.
Posted by Pot Meet Kettle
It's about time somebody told it like it is. There is no glass ceiling or wage gap. Men just do what has to been done to get to the top.

I know dozens of female creatives who've put in the time, done the hard work, and won the awards - in short, what it takes "to get to the top," yet they've been passed over for promotions, get paid less than male peers, and are excluded from boys' club activities, whether it's drinks after work or golf during the day while the females are slogging away at their desks. The only people I know who would argue there's no glass ceiling or wage gap are men, because they've never experienced it.
Posted by room_tone
Alicia, and others that obviously weren't at the event. You should really do your research, heck buy the DVD. You're an advertising professional, you can afford it.

The one thing you shouldn't be doing is posting your opinion about rumours and exaggerations - because there's nothing that makes someone look like more of an idiot than taking 3rd party information and presuming it's fact.

So to everyone that didn't go and is whining and complaining about what Neil "said", buy the DVD and take the time to really, really listen to it.

For example, he didn't say women are less creative or strategic because they have children. That's just ridiculous.

Less productive? I think when you take a year off for maternity leave, like it or not, you're going to be less productive than a man during that time period. Seems kind of obvious to me.
Posted by X Chromosome
Ah... Gotta love good old Frenchie...

Personally, nothing he said shocked me--I've heard far worse from guys I've worked for and with over the years. I'd put him in the same caegory as say, Hootie Johnson of Augusta National in Ga. And I'm tempted to I'd equate Nancy Vonk with Dr. Martha Burk as well... Why?

Because as HighJive (one of the other posters here) noted, the one group to benefit from affirmative action more than any other group since day one has been white women. In fact, I'll go one step further and say this: The ad industry's idea of diversity is Blondes brunettes and redheads plus openly gay versions thereof.

For all the "woe is me" kool aid drinking I hear from women in the ad industry the facts are these:

(1) The Ad World has no shortage of White Females at any level--CEOs, Creatives, Media, Account Service, etc.

(2) The Ad Industry remains, with the exception of secretaries, receptionists and mailroom workers over 90% white males and white females. Higher depending on what market you're in.

But when it comes to Black women or black men or latinos in GM shops? Unless you're counting the ones answering phones and delivering mail, good luck. finding them. The pickings are pretty slim. I should know because I'm one of them.

As a Black male Creative, the few Black women I've worked with over the years have been treated like dirt having had all manner of subtly and overtly biased and racist garbage spewed their way, largely by white women wolleagues. But white women are the first to bash Evil White Males for all that's wrong in the world.

Don't get me wrong. A bigot's a bigot. And Neil French may well be one. And no, I'm not accusing Vonk of anything as I've never met her or worked with her. But as I've said, we've got a problem in our industry and it goes beyond some chuavanist mouthing off at a banquet.

For the record, I'm speaking as a black male creative who's been in the business 13 years, who's won awards, who's worked on national accounts who has absolutely no gripes no bones to pick or axes to grind with anyone but who's genuinely sick and tired of the institutional hypocrisy and bias.

to compare this to being called a nigger? excuse me? I've been called a nigger by a client. and had my General Market agency defend the client.

I've had white colleagues call me a nigger. then hide behind the "oh i was just repeating a song lyric/chris rock bit" and walk away smirking.

yup, nancy. Being a white woman is just like being a black male. No difference at all. Fight on, sistah girl!

I once had a white feamle creative recruiter present my portfolio to a VP Creative Director who fell in love with my book and my real, recognized my work, knew my work we chatted over the phone, hired me over the phone, then when I went in to sign the paper work 2 days later, she took one look at me, realized that I was black--something that no one told her had told including my headhunter--and said "I'm sorry, we're in the beginng stages of the interview process and we several candidates to consider". She then told my headhunter I that didn't want the job in order to cover her butt. Even my headhunter knew exactly what was going on.

This was at a major agency back in the year 2000.

I tell you this because this is the kind of stuff that our industry is filled with yet we'd rather waste time with what some guy at a banquet said after one-too-many martinis.

So what if he really thinks women aren't good enough to do the job? Fact is, as Nancy so accuratey pointed out everyone from Nancy Rice to Charlotte Beers to herself to a whole army have gotten opportunity upon opportunity to prove him wrong. Which is all anyone wants.

By the way, all the women who have gotten these opportunities? White women.

Which is more than I can say for Black women or Black males or latinas or Asians.

But at least they acknowledge. And that's better than nothing. Right?
Posted by hadji
It may "only be advertising", but this job IS how I make my living. I would love to have a "wife" at home to take care of everything while I pursue my chosen career...
Posted by alice
no. I just think that as women, we'll be more compelled to work 110% harder because we'll have assholes like you making gerneralizations about our supposed decline in performance/productivity due to giving child birth and taking maternity leave.

Oh, and by the way, having been an aunt four times, I can make a clear assessment and state that maternity leave does NOT equal a vacation.
So you actually think that while on maternity leave you will be as productive to an agency as a male that is not on maternity leave.

Not to mention, no one said mat leave is a bloody vacation. It's a lot of work, sure, but it's a lot of work NOT called advertising.

Let's hope you don't blame your flawed logic on being a woman. Now THAT would be sexist.
Posted by X Chromosome
you guys have no right talking about Jesu---I mean neil that way.
Posted by billy randal
Since we seem to be stuck in the tedious mire of Ism's, let us be aware that the use throughout this thread of terms such as 'old', 'has been', and 'dinosaur' etc etc etc to disparage Neil French are clear demonstration that ageism is far more rampant - and far more openly tolerated - in our industry than sexism. Talent is talent. If you have it, flaunt it babe. And let us honour you for it. Regardless of gender, race or age.
Posted by pc babe
PC Babe... People aren't taking issue with French because of his age. we're taking issue with him because of his comments, the ideology they represent and in my case the hyprocrisy they're a reflection of.

As an adendum to my earlier posts...

sure there's some ageism in our industry, but from what i've seen we like folks over 30/40/50/60/70 just fine provided that they're of the proper shade. and given thead industry's over 90% white population(secretaries/mailroom workers not included) rosters folks like French fall into that category.

Personally, the older you get the smarter one is expected to get. This is about a man supposedly" bein' grown folk" as I like to say and having some common sense at age 70 or however old he is.

The only thing worse than a fool is an old fool.

and if that makes me a culprit of ageism, then so be it.

and once again. we still have the problem of at least certain folks get the opportunity to get to be old fools, females who prove them wrong, etc...

but no one wants to adress this very nasty nasty vicious problem we have of instution racism we have.

guess i'll have to wait for some white people to be offended for that one to get addressed.
Posted by hadji
(I wrote the following before seeing the remarks posted by Hadji. Don’t mean to repeat anything. But then again, it’s not like anyone else was concerned about duplicating messages.)

I’m growing increasingly disturbed about a few things here.

First, Neil French is a living symbol of everything wrong with the ad business. He presented nothing new in the negative areas of advertising, merely confirming the industry’s exclusivity in stereotypical White male fashion. The only surprise should be that anyone is surprised.

Yet Nancy Vonk presented some bizarre things too. Drawing parallels between sexism and racism seems unnecessary, and almost as deliberate in its shock effect as French’s carnival act. From her rewrite of Langston Hughes to her use of the word “nigger” — gee, her entire essay never referenced the words “bitch” or “cunt” — there’s a certain insensitivity to Vonk’s grievances. Think women have it tough? Try being a minority — or heaven forbid, a Black woman — in advertising.

Want to know the saddest part of this entire mess? No one will censor Neil French or all the other Neil Frenches in our ranks. And my money says Nancy Vonk abandons her revolutionary position by the end of the month.
Posted by HighJive
The NBA, now that's a racist institution.
Dear I'll show you racist,

Not sure what your point is. Please visit eschenck.typepad.com and view the thread discussing Hispanic Creativity Awards Show for a perspective regarding the NBA. You're right that the NBA is a racist institution. But what does that have to do with the discussion here?
Posted by HighJive
One more thought:

Neil French is the Worldwide Creative Director of WPP, the conglomerate that owns Ogilvy & Mather, the agency that creates the Dove Real Beauty campaign. Seems bizarre that someone so blatantly sexist should be associated with work claiming to be so liberating. Mr. French taints his own client’s efforts. Wonder how Unilever — and more importantly, its customers — might feel about all of this.
Posted by HighJive
Nancy is obviously pissed about what she heard Neil say. But she's saying much more than that. There are so many extra hurdles female creatives face everyday.

Not only do the female creatives at my agency-- all four of us-- burn the midnight oil, but we are forced to work twice as hard as the guys to find opportunities. To all creatives out there, what would you rather work on, the video game launch or the tampon account? Guess who gets the tampon account.

Since I've started working at my current job, I've been assigned to a supermarket account, an agency cookbook, and each and every pitch for a female clothing store... I think you get the picture. And the funny thing is, I don't cook, I don't have a family, and I know less about parenthood than all of the fathers around here.

I write this not to complain. Lord knows I've complained enough already. I write this to all the cd's out there, so that maybe it'll come to mind the next time you're passing out assignments. That's it.
Posted by srcopywriter
SrCopywriter,

I was at an agency where we pitched a tampon account-$10 million at the time. starts with a "t" ends with an "x". see if you can guess which one.

all the ladies got to work on it. the males, like myself were banned from it. we wanted to work on it because we saw it as an opportunity because as you know that category, like most pharmaceuticals, which was how we looked at it given the manufacuturer, did gawdawful work. But we were told, " nope, ladies only."

And to go a step further Only White women were allowed to work on the account at my shop because the belief was that black women and women of color disdn't care about femine hygeniene. And if they did, white women knew enough to speak to and for them.

for more, read KNOCK THE HUSTLE... the new book about the "other" ad industry. coming October 24 2005 at www.knockthehustle.com
Posted by hadji
More musings on this mess:

For starters, Nancy Vonk presents the contradictory complexities of the business for nearly everyone. She admits being aware of French’s historical biased tendencies, yet only now decides to speak out. It’s like she’s the victim who has repressed the crimes until a triggering event (in this case, A Night with Neil French) unleashes all the pent-up emotions. Don’t mean to judge her motivations, but she leaves a lot of questions, particularly for women in the business. Her final instructions are to “be outraged and act accordingly.” How should one act accordingly, Ms. Vonk? Are you telling women today to take the actions you failed to execute yourself for all these years? French still symbolizes the negative realities of the business — i.e., White men are in charge. It’s tough to expect people to risk career suicide by taking on The Man. So lead the way, Ms. Vonk. Don’t stop with a single heartfelt essay.

On the flipside, given that Worldwide Creative Director of WPP Neil French is technically Nancy Vonk’s boss — as Ogilvy Toronto is part of the WPP kingdom — we should salute her gutsy gripe. Let’s see if she experiences any political backlash by taking this stand.

Also, let’s put some blame for this mess on ihaveanidea. Whose brainstorm was it to bring in the French maid? Talk about setting up a sexist scenario. Plus, a trip to the organization’s online store reveals sale items that include thongs emblazoned with “So you are the Creative Director?” and “Is this billable?” Hardly the type of stuff befitting a group boasting to be “Advertising’s Intellectual Archive.”

Neil French, Nancy Vonk and ihaveanidea all represent the issues our industry continues to ignore. None have yet offered any solutions. And French doesn’t even recognize his contributions to the crimes.

Everyone is cordially invited to view alternative perspectives at MultiCultClassics.blogspot.com (Essay 183 may be interesting).
Posted by HighJive
nice plug HighJive!

Nobody visiting you website these days?

that's too bad.

strange that you blast the people who were behind A Night with Neil French from secondary comments and opinions that you've researched (you obviously weren't there at the event) and then in the very same breathe capitalize on them for your own benefit...

some visionary you are

get a life
Posted by BigJohn
actually, BJ, i'm not capitalizing on anything. there's no profit to be made or personal benefit here. i'm just looking to further dialogue and thinking. i'd hardly call that visionary.

but thanks for commenting.
Posted by HighJive
Sorry HighJive, you're right.

Essay 183 wasn't very interesting.

And I couldn't find any alternative perspectives...only yours.

humdrum
Posted by BigJohn
from a female student on the brink of graduating from an ad school, thank you. :-)
Posted by talin astourian
What a bunch of crap. What a bunch of whining.

I wasn't there, but what i heard was that Neil went on about how talented many women were..
he also said, despite this, a percentage of women would leave and go become mothers--
This leaves a vacuum at the top. This destroys continuity.
Is he wrong?
The fact is, many women do leave to become mothers or they need to spend a lot of time at home being mothers--regardless of their advertising talent.
How can someone in a managerial position NOT conside this.
Protesting too much perhaps..
Posted by Reality Check
Reality Check, you need one too.
Nancy Vonk thinks Niel is wrong. A lot of comments here think hes wrong. No one is whining. Someone in a managerial must NOT consider this because its illegal to judge peoplethis way.
Posted by JulieM
You have to look at both sides of his comments, not just the ones that allow for indignation.
I know Neil. I don't think he was trying to keep anyone down. I think his mouth got ahead of his brain for a second.
The thing is, having children and wanting to take care of them is a much higher calling than writing ads.
I think Neil was expressing frustration at losing talent--and trying to be funny about it.
I object to the lynching.

Oh and Nancy Vonk, who cares--she missesd the point, hurt a friend and the discussion.
A creative response to his brain fart would've made a more impactful statement--like a DM piece to Neil. Like a print ad in the paper...

All that has happened is that the PC have shut down another interesting conversation.

Again, I wasn't there, but I have been around and had enough drinks with Neil to know that there was a twinkle in his eye when he said what he did.
Posted by Reality Check
Reality Check... I'm sorry that Neil got lynched. All he did was make a smart alleck remark towards women.

oh, wait... postmodern deja vu!

actually, dude, your name is just too ironic for me to let this one pass. Again. There's a bigger point here and you're thinking smaller than the old VW ad.
Posted by hadji
From the Globe & Mail

One man's take on why women never seem to get ahead
Thursday, October 13, 2005
PATRICIA BEST
Advertising industry legend Neil French hit Toronto last Thursday and something else hit the fan following a highly controversial speaking engagement to a crowd of ad industry folks that evening. It has shaken the industry. The scene was the $125-a-person event at the John Bassett Theatre held by ad industry website ihaveanidea.org. In the audience were local agency people, clients, many students (including some who made the pilgrimage from U.S. schools) and leading industry lights such as Bobby Pawar, VP of BBDO Chicago, Steve Hayden, vice-chairman and worldwide creative director of Ogilvy & Mather, and American ad greats Mark Fenske and Rick Boyke.

The entertainment included flamenco guitar music and dancers -- and a French maid who served drinks to the speakers on stage. Both were insider references to Mr. French, a bullfighting aficionado who is worldwide creative director for WPP Group PLC. He oversees advertising creative from agencies including Ogilvy, JWT, Young & Rubicam and Grey Worldwide. Mr. French enjoys such nomenclature as "iconic," "Godfather" and "legend of the industry" among his fellows. He also enjoys a reputation for being opinionated, brutally honest and politically incorrect.

So what hit the fan? Mr. French's answer to a question on why there weren't more women creative directors -- or CDs in industry argot. In the harshest possible terms, Mr. French said women don't make it to the top because they don't deserve to. "They're crap," he is quoted as saying. Labelling women "slacker-breeders," he elaborated, pointing to their role as child-bearers and caregivers and the time that takes away from burning the midnight oil at the office as a major impediment to the gender being seen as worthy of promotion on the creative side in the advertising world. Mr. French laced his remarks with "babe" and "bitch" -- two words not often heard in a public speech. As for his audience, reports indicate some people squirmed in their seats, some people left the event and most hung on his every word. One of ihaveanidea.org's columnists, Nancy Vonk, who is co-chief creative officer at Ogilvy in Toronto along with another columnist, Janet Keston, was appalled and posted an angry editorial on the website.
Posted by truth
Thanks for your essay, Nancy. When trying to succeed, people make sacrifices, and sometimes the wrong sacrifices. They do it to survive, to get ahead. That's why we have laws protecting workers from thuggish behavior on the side of people in power. The other reason why is that we all want those with the best talents and knowledge to be able to contribute to the process. We don't want the dictatorship of the mediocre. And while French thinks his approach lead to greatness in fact, in the long term, it leads to what we have today as an ad industry. It's the companies that have woken up and pushed the cigar-smoking stodginess aside that are going to be making great advertising in the future rather than tired yuck-yuck-yo Superbowl spots.

Here's hoping this debacle will lead to more of an awakening and improvements that will break us out of the constricting and limiting mold of chauvinism and prejudice!
Posted by Reality re-checked
Adage reports that Mr French is leaving WPP. Good riddance.
I have written about how he mocked an Indian writer for having a stuttering problem on my blog.
Well done Nancy!
Posted by Sunil Shibad
Yes, well done Nancy...
Posted by pclady
I am a woman who has worked in advertising for almost 20 years, first as a copywriter and now as a creative director. There haven’t been many postings from senior industry women on this topic, and I suspect it’s because they’re all too busy doing ads to be distracted by comments as completely unsurprising as French’s.

Neil French is a brilliant man who occasionally needs to blurt out shocking things, and I cannot hate him any more than I would hate the subject of an Oliver Sacks case study. French’s view may be widely held, but that view has done nothing to limit my prospects or those of other women I know. I have observed unsuccessful ad women blaming sexism for their plight, but I have also observed of these women that sexism was the least of their problems.

I spent most of my copywriting career serving male creative directors. Their tone in dealing with me was never disrespectful, only hopeful – as in, “I hope you have some good ideas.” Life as a creative director has made me very familiar with this feeling of anxious hopefulness. The fact is, good help is hard to find. And if somebody brings you something as rare as a good idea, believe me, you won’t care if that somebody is a man, a woman or an ocelot. Another fact is that good creative people are light on their feet; you have them for as long as you have them, and then they’re gone. Whether you lose them to motherhood or to another agency is kind of academic.

Some parting advice to women in advertising: if you feel hurt or humiliated by this whole controversy, I will not tell you you’re wrong. But I will tell you that the energy you’re spending on feeling awful could be used much more profitably – for example, by studying the examples of ad women who kicked butt in the 1950s and 60s. I would recommend A Big Life in Advertising, Mary (Wells) Lawrence’s terrific account of her career as a co-founder of Wells Rich Greene. I would also suggest the following link for a reverential tribute to Shirley Polykoff, the copywriter responsible for the Clairol line, “Does she…or doesn’t she?”: http://www.ciadvertising.org/studies/student/00_spring/theory/kwilliam/public_html/polykoff/index.html
Posted by Suzanne Pope
Thank you, Suzanne Pope. It’s good to hear a voice of reason. I have tried to say the same things on this board, but was overlooked because I’m a man. I’m sure some people will try to say you must have had a blessed career for not experiencing much prejudice. My bet is that you showed people from the very beginning that you were more interested in making great ideas than office politics. You’re bang on right with ad women from the 50s and 60s, they were awesome, some of the best writing and art directing of that era.
Posted by t-dubv
at what point do we stop telling those caught underneath it to simply "get over it" and start telling those responsible for creating the barriers in the first place to knock it off?

or are saying that this is part of building a better creative/better worker?

just curious?
Posted by hadji
Oh my god! There's an opinionated man out there somewhere?? And he's in ADVERTISING? Who would have thought it?

What's most important is that we really LISTEN to his opinion because it is bound to be so truly original and educated.

Please, Neil! Tell us more! Tell us more!
No wonder ad agencies on Madison Avenue are being marginalized. The days when idiot comments like his are tolerated are over. Clients are more aware now than ever that bloated agencies led by cigar chomping misogynists are an anachronism. What a tool.
Posted by Adexzec
I loved this industry. I'm a women. The industry fucked me over. Now I'm doing something else. I'm much happier. It's not worth living your life as a second class citizen.
Posted by Jaded
Male or female no one can deny that this thread is fascinating. It is branding in action!

French states in a just-released article in Ad Age that he has suffered “death by blog.”

So we see unfolding before our eyes:

1. “Consumer power,” but in this case the consumer is “one woman getting her knickers in a twist” as French is quoted as saying, “and writing a long diatribe on a Web site and then all the other people with nothing to do joining in.”
2. The power of the “new media.”
3. How opinions can become polarized about matters of identity.
4. How ya’ got to be careful if you want to live a long time cos you cannot control markets no matter how smart you think you are.
5. How British culture is different to Canadian culture. And as I grew up in the former, I am proud to be part of the latter as I am raising two daughters who I hope do not have to encounter too many Neil Frenchs in their career.

Blog power rules.
Posted by Tom Beakbane
Dear Jaded,

The industry doesn't force people out, unless they have no talent.

Dear Tom,
Neil is old and rich, he doesn't need to be careful.
Posted by Haha
Um, alright so I got a bunch of private messages from people on the forum to come post something here since I'm the forum's token menstruator more or less, so here I am.

I started typing my thoughts and they ended up being longer than Nancy's original article, so I posted it here, rather than clog up this thread: http://www.livejournal.com/users/sunnycrittenden/8261.html

I'm not really in the ad industry though, so I'm not sure my thoughts on this even apply. I'm just a loud-mouthed uterus-owning textibitionist who happens to be interested in advertising.
Posted by Sunny
The fact that one writer had to reach back to the 50s, 60s and Anne Rice in the 80s as "proof" that women don't suffer discrimination is this business, while screamingly funny, pretty much speaks for itself.
The jack-offs howling that the ad biz is a pristine meritocracy where sexism magically does not exist are men – now there's a fucking surprise –just as the usual suspects sniffing that blacks need to get the chip off their shoulder are inevitably white. Well, assholes, it's 7 pm, and I'm at the office again. My 13 year old is at home, playing catch-up on her science project, a class she's flunking. My 8 year old needs shrinkage for depression, and my husband's probably fucking someone at his office.
But damn, my TV concepts for our new client are good. They should be, with the time I've put in.
My art director's here with me, working with a 103 fever, yeah, she's a "she." The other team pitching creative on the project is getting shit-faced in a pub across the street. Their boards aren't done yet, they'll come back and finish them after they're done drinking and I've "slacked off" and gone home to my kids ...I'm guessing around 10 pm.
They're a couple of 20-something dudes from Portfolio Center, and I guaran-dam-tee you they make more than I do.
Creative Directors? I've worked for 5 – twice, I hired my own boss. Well, I was told I was hiring my partner – who promptly got promoted over me.
Awards, you ask? I've got local, regional and international ones gathering dust on my shelves.
This is not an ad industry problem – it's a societal problem. I made all the sacrifices French says women won't make – and both my kids and I still got screwed. As for the option of packing it all in and letting my husband pull the weight – not going to happen. I'm the primary breadwinner, and if my kids go to college, it'll be on my dime.
It's a moot point, guys. French just acted out his role as the "id" of the ad biz, and said what he thought, and only personifies what most female creatives encounter all the time. If you haven't experienced it, stop talking about a topic you can't possibly understand. Why don't female creatives rise to the top? They get fed up with dickheads like French, the heartbreaking choices, the insane juggling that makes you get up and vomit every morning from the stress ... until, finally, they say to hell with it, and go freelance so they can write copy while their kids sitin the dentist chair. That's where the most talented women I know ended up – and hopefully I'll soon be one of them.
Posted by patsyb
I applaud Nancy Vonk for writing this article. She appears to be one of the only females who is brave and willing to suffer the slings and arrows. I'm willing to bet she received a lot of phone calls and emails from women thanking her for this. However, why aren't they taking a stand alongside her? Nancy mentioned no less than four other talented and accomplished Toronto female creative directors in her article, yet not one of them posts their own thoughts, unless they're using an alias. And they're the who could contribute the most to this debate, by being living examples that women can acheive great things in this business.
Posted by Anonymous
The sting in any rebuke is the truth...What if Neil is right?
Posted by jim
Bravo Jim.

Right or wrong, there were more CREATIVE ways for nancy and others to respond to his poorly considered comments and timing.

But that's the point mad ein another way, isn't it?
Posted by Reality Check
Very insightful post Sunny, and unfortunately one that might not suit the tastes of some of the other women who have posted here.

http://www.livejournal.com/users/sunnycrittenden/8261.html
Posted by AquaFina
Advertising, schmadverising.
It may take us returning to the
"stoneage" to get real again.
The whole feminist schtick has
been a huge failure destructive to
the family unit and America.
Selfish women are still whining.
Posted by notcastrated
Very Texan
Posted by Reality Check
I am outraged. Outraged! at Mr. French's comments.

See my blog at http://page3.com/models2005/neval2_26_05_05.jpg
Posted by Pinky
By the way, since this wasn't a sexist event, who is the hot babe in the maid's outfit serving Neil drink on stage? (see pictures on "a night with" ...on home page)
Is this, perhaps, Canadian womens' idea of how to properly portray women. If so, I take back everything I have written. You ladies are right on target! (yes, this is meant to be facetious for those of you who already have their panties tightly in a wad)

But seriously, why aren't you writing about that ?

That one lovely outfit probably did more to degrade women that anything Neil has ever said!

Now I can't take any of this seriously.
Do I hear opportunistic?
Do I hear hypocritical?
Posted by Reality Check
Reality Check,

Others did write about the maid, including Nancy. Spend a moment reviewing the notes before displaying your ignorance.
Posted by JulieM
Pinky,
Excellent.
You said a mouthful.
You have completely changed my POV.
Your arguments are sound and convincing.
Let me know when I can get on board
Posted by Reality Check
My point is that all the boo hooing over what he said is a cover for not dealing constructively what he said. Nancy is an executive at a large corporation. I am sure she has been told much worse from people along the way and asked to do even worse. What probably offended her was that he said it aloud in front of a lot of people. How about dealing with it like an adult instead of pleading to emotions. A priori logic combined with faulty epistemology is best left to politicians.
Posted by jim
S'cuse.
I just thought what nancy wrote was shit and I couldnt finish it.
Would've rather read the transcript of what Neil said.

But, since you are clearly up on the issue, how do you feel about a chick in a maid's outfit serving drinks to 3 grinning letches?

And who are the women smiling on stage after the event? Were they not listening?
Posted by Reality Check
If everyone's adult and willing, who am I to say? Entropy is the way of the universe, let chaos reign. As long as it wasn't gin, who cares. :-)
Posted by jim
Reality Check,

Your comments reveal your ignorance. You post poison when admitting you never read the original essay and its resulting remarks. Bravo to you. We all bow to your genius.
Posted by JulieM
Now that Neil has been fired/resigned/given a golden handshake, I wonder if Nancy woild bless us with a follow-up article to this one. I'm not being facetious, it's just that it was her article on this very site that brought Neil's comments to now global attention, and yet none of the news stories have so much as a 'no comment' from her yet.
Posted by Where's Nancy
Sorry Jim,
Was responding to Julie M's perceptive calling out of my ignorance.
People do get riled up, don't they?
Problem is, she's my wife.
(no, not really..and don't get upset Julie, I know you'd never have anything to do with a clod like me. You are much too sophisticated.)

But it is all fun, huh? And, a little sad.

Be angry. Be amused. Be apathetic...
just know that we have quite possibly lost a talented and usually inspiring voice of our craft to politicing and PC run amok.
Could have been handled better.
Could have ended with some real gains made.
Posted by Reality Check
lower...


ok.
too much now.
I'm sorry Julie.
This isn't personal.
But you do make me smile
Truce
Posted by Reality Check
Hey Julie,

I'm pretty sure that Reality Check is allowed to respond without reading Nancy's entire, biased, halfway facetious, article, considering most of the women whining on these boards have admitted to not even attending the event or reading a transcript.
Posted by Steve
Well, my comment submitted yesterday never got posted on this site. I hope this one does. Maybe it's because I'm from Southeast Asia... And perhaps not very bright. You people must hate it that Neil chose to live with us!

Neil said what he wanted to say, Yonk did the same. Neil quit, Yonk got vindicated (though it was obvoius her well-structured prose, balanced with healthy dosess of flaterry and concern for the man smacked of mischief). Bottom line: Neil is your salvatiun, finally womankind in advertising is safe.

Now, get back to work!

BTW Nancy, you may want to upgrade your knowledge of Southeast Asia, in between babies, to understand that women are respected here. You represent a typical Westerner imposing your opinions on a society that knows how to live without justifying its existence. But then again, you'll ever learn... if this comment dos not get posted.
And if it matters, you may be keen to know I have won more significant creative awards than you have.
Posted by ham singh
I'm told no transcript is available and with less than 500 attendees, the majority of those commenting, even the media reporting on this, is only going by hearsay.
Posted by Sunny
Ham - I completely understand. Having grown up in Singapore, watching how Canada responds to this situation falls somewhere between sad, and hilarious. I smirked to myself as well when I read Nancy's views on Southeast Asia. I would have expected someone in her place, busily condemning Neil for categorizing women, not to be a complete hypocrite and do the same thing to an entire region.

Sunny - You can buy the DVD for 30 bucks.
Posted by Steve
Show me the money - well said!
Posted by ham singh
Steve, the DVD isn't available yet. You may be able to order it, but I don't think anyone has a copy yet. Last I heard, it was still being editted.
Posted by Sunny
May I add that ihaveanidea has done a great job with this event. Ignacio and his team: take a bow! It's not easy pleasing ad people.
Posted by ham singh
Everyone is so offended and jumping on the anti-French momentum that you are not willing to consider his argument. What if women "are crap" in this business? Shouldn't we consider that? It looks like a new 'warlock' hunt is on and men will have to endure more sensitivity training because some people got their feelings hurt. I guess a man can only have a point of view if it doesn't offend anybody. I say let's explore issue. If he is wrong then let's prove it. If he's right, then let's deal with it. Isn't that what AA's first step is, recognize the problem? So women don't get mad, you are different then men and in many respects better. I for one do not want a manly women nor do I want to be a womanly man. It just get old when the only solution is "change the men".
Posted by Roy Ojezabaldy
Roy O,

No one got their feelings hurt, except maybe Neil French. If you need proof he is wrong, you need a life. Clearly, you have experience with AA. Best of luck to you.

Show me the money,

When the entire swarm of young, eager females go for Nancy's book, I'm sure you'll be lurking nearby with your knickers bunched around your ankles.

Reality Check,

I'm sure you'll join Show me the money---provided you can break away from downloading your internet porn.

Most of the men commenting here are only confirming Nancy's pov, which is shared by so many others.
Posted by JulieM
Julie,
You are just so consumed with anger! I wish I knew you in person, it would be fun to push your bottons all day long! Your rebuttle to those of us who do not agree with you is to just cast insults. When French made his " insult" it can be argued that it is based on his years of dealing with women in the business. You just slander with no merit. Does that not put you in a position worse then French? Let's not be a typical knee jerk reactionary... I am curious where this anger comes from. I wish you well.
Posted by Roy Ojezabaldy
did everyone forget that after tupac wrote the "keepin' your head up song he was arrest for beating the crap out of a woman.... how quick we forget. advertising the long hours.... are not meant for family folk and that's the truth. i sit here in my office and it's 12:11 on a thursday night and my day is just ending. advertising is a personal choice for many people. no industry is women friendly, unless we're talking about about the account side of business, stip bars, airlines or telemarketing and the HR world. this is a mans world, adam was here first. lets just make sure we go down in history for our accomplishments ladies... and not our shortcomings. viva creative women.
Posted by Yulia
I not only subscribe the idea that "women cd's are crap", i also would like to subtanciate that, exept for some lucky, bright-minded, lucid women, the rest of the women are awful, problem-filled, emotional-responsive and terrible men co-workers.

Some say that iguality is the answer. I say, let's admit that there are diferences, and explore the ways that women should have a diferent contribution to our society. We can't allways expect to have some women at contruction sites or doing heavy jobs, but they might be the "brain" of the engeneeiring process.

Be smarter!
Posted by Rodrigo
your comments show your lack of: support, depth, compassion. But exstensive [mis]judgement on human kind......hey - you work in advertising, right?
Posted by clive
Honestly, I have heard so many insulting comments women made about men, that I can`t even count them. But the trouble is. Did any of those women ever resign from her career, job or position due to her sexist comments? I can`t remember a single case. Now, tell me who the real sexist are. And what the hell became of good old "Freedom of speech"?
By the way, I do not agree with Mr. French point of view.
Posted by Paco
My goodness! Has any other guest speaker at an advertising 'do' ever provoked so much debate? I didn't see Neil's act of hara kiri, but I worked briefly with him years ago. Yes, he's a male chauvinist pig (he's an ex-manager of the band Judas Priest, for God's sake - or so he says). He's also opinionated, controversial and guaranteed to get your back up at some point during any given evening. But when all's said and done, he's a brilliant creative and a one-off personality. On behalf of copywriters everywhere (male and female), come back soon, Neil.
Posted by geoff phillips
The guy (Neil), is from an "older" generation for god's sake. What can those old fools possibly know? They are "older" and that makes them quite stupid really. No advice or comment they make has any value or offers any benefit to you young women. I'm surprised you're actually going to let an old guy like him live.
Posted by Bill
There's no such thing as bad publicity....

Er, hang on, maybe there is.
Posted by Comedy Central
Sexism, ageism, racism...........neilism? :-)
Posted by Sean
Dear Ms. Vonk,
Women's best answer to Mr. French and others with like opinions is in the excellence of their work. Years ago women went into nursing, now they are physicians. Years ago women became legal assistants, now they are lawyers.
On our planet women are still thought of as less accomplished than men. Mr. French simply exposes that fact publically. In my view the answer to Mr. French is for women, such as yourself, to lay that opinion to rest by your example and by performing your work with the great imaginative dedication that you possess. Women will prove Mr. French will be proven wrong by superior performance. That is performance not focused on proving him wrong, but performance as a result of the desire and dedication to be excellent in their work.
Posted by Victor
Maybe Ogilvy Toronto should do better work, and people wouldn't question female Cds.
Posted by The Truth
Neil has employed many female CD's does he do it to have them do anything else but create and run crreative departments?

Any man or woman working in this industry knows that it goes with the job, in working around the globe we all see it happening someone somewhere does not fit in and gets shafted, is it a gendeer thing NO, is it experience related NO, they are not part of the "team" reasons are does not stay late, leaves early, not enough ideas, missed deadlines etc, we have all been there. Neil is in your face not behind your back!
Posted by JC
Power has shifted. Women can now get a man thrown out of a job because of his attitude , no matter how good he is (and Neil is good).

Now that they know they can get rid of Neil, they will be gunning for you other guys as well. When the lady professors swooned in Cambridge a few months ago, Larry Summer had $50 million to pay them off and keep his job. Neil didn't have that much so he took the axe.

Look, guys. They learned all the bogus shock and outrage posturing in women's studies classes in college, and they will use it whenever they can. Just remember that it's all a show. The women in the industry , like Nancy Vonk, claim to be "paralyzed" by Neil's words like some Victorian virgin, yet they laugh uproariously through The Vagina Monologues.

It's just a show. They no longer need Neil. They have achieved critical mass, and their collective email campaign to get him to either (1) quit, or (2) grovel, worked! If they can take down a bull moose, baby, they can crush you like a rabbit.

But Neil is right and that's why he had to pay. They are tired of working as hard as a guy and now want to collectively slack off -- and they don't want the Neils of this world noticing and commenting. Get ready for the sensitivity classes and diversity classes. The lights are going to go out earlier and earlier as women head home to the kids. The culture is going to change to fit in with the baby-making schedule of the girls. Toughness, courage, dedication, all the guy virtues are going to go out the window as they have in so many other wussified businesses. And anyone, ANYONE, who questions that change is going to have to face the HR party commisar in each office.

Neil was right. Just watch and see.

Ladies, please don't bother with the hyperventilated shock and outrage, don't fall to the floor with a case of NVP (Nancy Vonk "paralysis"), for you will just prove my point: you can turn it on and off like a faucet.
Posted by Big Bill
Wonderful post BigBill.

Reminds me of a contract I recently signed, on which it mentioned that a girl only needs to accuse me of sexual harassment for it to be considered sexual harassment.

In the contract, it stated that my intentions didn't matter, and whether or not I was actually harassing her didn't matter either. All that mattered was that she "felt" harassed.

I tell ya, I'm feeling harasshed right now.
Posted by Little Rabbit
patsyb, excellent post.

So women want to be paid equally for "slacking off"? Funny, but my experience, and that of many females I know, has been very similar to patsy's. Putting in far more hours and effort than our male counterparts, whose ideas inevitably get chosen in gangbangs, and who invariably get promoted higher, stronger, faster... Alas, talent and hard work are not enough. The lights don't have to go out earlier, Big Bill. It is usually the women who are turning them on again when the auto timer goes off at 10 pm.
Posted by room_tone
To: Nancy Vonk, thank you for writing your article.
Your intelligent response makes it slightly more bearable to live, and work, in a world where women still have to waste our time justifying our existence against ridiculous, insecure statements like those made by Neil French.

Lately, I find women are reluctant to speak out against comments like French's. So it's encouraging to read your remarks. I hope that this unfortunate situation encourages women, and especially men, to challenge sexist attitudes, and see them for what they really are: pathetic attempts to maintain power and privilege.
Posted by t
Well, for those struggling with the political controversies, perhaps it would be easier to consider the professional aspects.

Neil French stumbled for his failures as an adman.

First, he failed to consider a key advertising tenet: Know your target. He walked into an audience with lots of women and young professionals and spewed outdated perspectives.

Second, his quotes during an Advertising Age interview spoke volumes. “If you can’t commit yourself to any job then, by definition, you’re crap at it. If you can’t commit 100% to your job, don’t pretend you can. Nobody deserves a job unless they can commit to it,” he insisted. Neil French couldn’t commit to keeping up with the times, which is what the advertising business has always demanded.
Posted by HighJive
I don't know what anyone's talking about... Neil French looks sweet from the adage photo (http://www.adage.com/news.cms?newsId=46467). The fat cuban cigar gives him a rather... errr charming look. Like my grandpa.... the one who grew up on the plantation and still calls grown men "boy". You know... one of the "good ol' boys".
Posted by Yulia
Let the punishment fit the crime. Don't fire the man make him work for his supper. Prove just how good you are . Your sentence...only be allowed to work on creative aimed at women. Lets see how ORIGINAL you are now baby ! Earn your place at the table by having to win back the audience you just pissed off. It's what all the women under you have had to do to earn their seat at the table. They learnt how to do 'man speak' now wouldn't it be fun if we could watch you have to learn to do 'woman speak'.
Its so boring all this 'if your not tough enough you don't deserve a seat at the table' stuff. Where's the originality in that. Women have learnt how to bend over backwards to walk like a man. Mr French its time to see if you had to talk like a woman just how ORIGINAL are you. Its not about how much time you put into the job, it's about do you have anything interesting to say.
For my two cents worth, I don't think you have the tits for the job.
Posted by kia
Let me ask this "would you get rid of someone who has the talent to save the ship? " Or is the muntiny on the Ogilvy?
Posted by JC
I just read Neil's comments in AdWeek. I gotta give him credit, at least, for not doing the usual "that's not what I really meant" b.s. dance a-la Bill Bennett. But hey, as far as female creatives — I'd work for or with Sally Hogshead in a heartbeat. And I could care less when she leaves the office. Speaking of that. After twenty-odd years in this business I've noticed something and I'm surprised others like Neil haven't come to the same conclusion: guys, it's just advertising. "The real great work". Give me a break — we're not painting the Sistene Chapel here. All of us take this business way too seriously. Ideas can't tell time, by the way. So why should good ones only happen after 5:30. Ironically, it was an ad I read a while ago that said, "At the end of your life, do you suppose you're going to wish you had spent more time at the office?"
Posted by Jeese C.
I had never heard of this man until right now (I don't work in advertising, obviously), but here's something to consider: He definitely just proved why it is he's a guru. He just advertised the hell out of himself.
Let him go on thinking women are "crap," if that's what he even thinks, which I doubt. I've never met a job, save for sperm donation, that the right woman can't do more efficiently and effectively than a man.
Posted by Lo
I was just reminded of some dialogue that occured that night, after a phone call witha friend. And it really irked me.

Wouldn't it have been nice if Nancy would have included the bit where Neil mentioned, after saying women are crap, that he was just kidding and trying to get a rise out of us Canadians - women aren't actually crap.

if I remember right, he also went on to mention how he'd actually like to see more women succeed high up in the business because they'd make things more interesting.

But then, when you've got an agenda to push, why would you present the entire event objectively and let people make their own opinions?

Watching the industry and media flock like vultures on an easy target (thanks to political correctness) after reading one side of the truth is really destroying my faith in people.
Posted by Steve
100% support for Nancy. We have to stand up to these cigar smoking old farts and let them know their risible 1980's self serving nonsense is no longer welcome. Neil French is not 'outrageous' or entertaining, he's a blustering gout ridden old fool.
Posted by Frank
It is shocking how many apologists there are for this mysogynist pig. Can you imagine how a woman would be crucified for saying the same hate filled statements? The more things change the more they stay the same.
Posted by Chris T
Steve,

I hope you are wrong in your perceptions. I have begged for someone to publish transcripts, but to no avail.

Also, why does no one defend the man? He even seems to admit his words in interviews with Advertising Age and Adweek.

The media has actually presented things in an objective format. And it all supports the extreme likelihood that Neil French is exactly what Nancy says he is.
Posted by JulieM
Julie, if I'm wrong about Neil's actual words, I'll quite happily stick my foot in my mouth, and then agree with Nancy wholeheartedly. Heck, I don't completely disagree with her now. I just can't stand seeing half an argument perceived as a whole.

I don't think I'm wrong though, as I took special note of those words that evening because I already had visions of what chaos would ensue. The friend I spoke to confirmed he had heard the same words from Neil.

In regards to more people defending him, consider that most of the posts defending Neil have been getting deleted. Also, this is 2005 - having a cause to 'fight for' is considered trendy now. Like all those bracelets the stars are wearing.

In the end I suppose it's a moot point though. The talented, hard working women will still have amazing careers, the talentless hacks will still fail, and Neil French will still be bloody rich.

He'll just be able to spend more time with his kid now.

Neil always did love irony.
Posted by Steve
Wow, what an interesting read. I’d love to post ten times a day about this subject, but I have a job and am busy. Maybe if all you did that a little more, you wouldn’t over think such trivial topics. Here’s a to